Well guns aren’t really that useful for digging or anything like that. But do you need a gun if you are becoming self-reliant? Let me tell you a true story that happened to me which had me re-think the whole concept of security.
image by DrJimGlide
I was at a local shop talking with the owner about carrying the DVD in his store. He was congenial enough, but looked me right in the eye and told me “I will never need to grow food”. I told him that you never knew what was coming and being able to grow food could be a crucial skill. He flatly told me he would never have to grow food. I asked him why, and he said “because I have this”, and from under the counter he pulled out a big black semi-automatic gun.
I stared at the gun not understanding, and I asked him ‘What do you mean?”
“Well, if anything happens” he said, “it is like this; with this gun I can get all the food I need from people like you who grow it”.
Several customers who had been listening in on the conversation agreed with the shop owner. They were ordinary looking people and I would have never guessed they would have this kind of thinking.
Now I live in Texas, which has a proud tradition of gun ownership. Buying, selling, and swapping guns is easy and legal – in fact, it is a major pastime for many Texans. And while Texas may be on the more extreme end of the spectrum, that kind of mentality exists in some form everywhere.
So I began a project of researching guns and self-defense. Within the history of recent periods it is well documented that crime and violence go up as economic conditions go down. And there certainly are scenarios where law and order break down. Having some level of defense is an important skill.
image by TheCreativePenn
Here is a short summary of the major points and useful resources I have discovered about self-defense. One of the first things I found is gun owners are strongly opinion-ed and they rarely agree. Most of them were very friendly and offered lots of help in my process of trying to find what weapons I might need and how to use them. But be aware there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
Getting some basic training is essential. Of all the videos I’ve seen, I found the series produced by The Outdoor Channel titled “The Best Defense” to have the most useful and specific information for a novice gun owner.
Of the many trainings that are available there are some that are free or low cost. We attended an excellent training done over a weekend where they teach rifle marksmanship and an entertaining dose of revolutionary war history. The training is sponsored by a group called Appleseed. As of 2010, the course was free to women and children, and only $75 for men. They welcomed beginners and a majority of the rifles were inexpensive .22 caliber. To find an Appleseed event near you click here. (Lisa’s note: The fee for the Appleseed event we attended was much less expensive.)
As a woman, I found that I felt comfortable with the .22LR caliber as a first handgun and rifle. Lower startup cost, relative quiet, and low recoil helped my skittish nerves and fear of these powerful new tools. As I gained more experience and got comfortable with gun safety and operation, I moved up to a 9mm handgun. Over half of all hand guns sold in the US are 9mm and with that much popularity the caliber is likely to be available as long as ammunition is available.
image by roblisameehan
Another very common and versatile gun is the shotgun. By far, 12 guage is the most widely available size. If you are only going to have one gun, I have to agree with the experts recommendation of the 12 gauge shotgun with a shorter barrel as an all around weapon. The first time I shot a 12 guage it was loaded with heavy buckshot and I almost fell over from the noise and recoil and I was afraid of them for a long time. Later, a friend introduced me to low recoil rounds, and after some testing, I realized that even simple bird shot loads (which are fairly light) would be highly effective in home – or garden – defense scenarios. My 11 year old son can also handle the 12 gauge with lighter loads.
Hopefully, you and I (or my son!) will never get to the point of needing a weapon to defend our gardens and livestock. But it sure is something to think about – and prepare for. Actually, I have been finding it a lot of fun to go shooting.
© 2011, thesurvivalmom. All rights reserved.
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Laryssa
That man's comment is an amazing insight into what human nature can be like. Wow. My family really enjoys shooting guns and I've become quite proficient at using the 9mm handgun. Loads of fun!
traumamamma
Years of working in the ER has confirmed your insight into human nature….I, too, enjoy guns AND gardening….that shop owner better find another place to loot food! Failure to prepare is preparing to fail…people don't rise to the occasion; they, like that shop owner, will sink to their level of preparedness.(which appears to be no preparedness at all!) You must simply be more prepared than the other guy!
Colleen
I had a similar experience with a friend who is a great outdoorsman – avid hunter – even owns and uses his own bullet reloader. In discussing the possible breakdown of society and needing to learn some skills like outdoor cooking and baking in order to survive he said to me, "I won't have to bake bread because I can take bread". My eyes became saucers as I realized the mindset that exists for some people out there. I have never forgotten it.
traumamamma
Colleen, don't ever forget what that man said…and never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers,,,which is exactly what that man was talking about! Learn to use a dutch oven…learn to bake bread…and learn to shoot a gun. That rises your level of preparedness, as well as your level of humanity. Pass on what that sad man said, so that those you love will realize the mentality of the majority…
Lynda
Those that made such foolish comments must be under the impression that gun owners don't garden and would simply hand over the fruits(and veggies) of their labor. I don't think so.
Groundhog
Animals like that make me sick. I suspect they're actually too cowardly to even try what they say. I wonder at the mind set that would think people that already defend themselves from cyotes, wild dogs, hogs, snakes, and the occasional bipedal preditor would not be ready for their suburban redneck stupidity. (No offense to the true good rednecks intended there!). By the way, got you blog rolled.
Andrea
And that's why I practice with an M-14 and enjoy a sign that says>>>>
"IF YOU CAN READ THIS, YOU'RE IN RANGE"
Alex
Andrea, are you really shooting an m14? Not an M1A?
Dustin
We're only a few meals from total societal collapse, really. I'm not surprised by his statement, just in his being frank enough to admit it. So many people will turn predatorial when the chips are down…
This is a VERY accurate reflection of human nature and their capacity to turn on each other in a pinch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shelter_(The_Twi… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Vxx7FwoyE
Chris
I'm learning to shoot an m16 this week. I can't have guns on campus, but I can use the on campus range. Lol.
People like that piss me off…
Alex
Chris, you shooting an m16? Don't you mean AR15? Just askin.
AR15 Bob
My wife and I have been prepping for over three years giving up vacations extras just making sure our families would be provided for have owned guns of all kinds since I was fifteen years old and know how to use them .both of us are avid shooters people like this make me sick take care of your own stuff not steal from others all I can say to him and his pals is BRING IT!!!!! you come to my house you wout like what you you find and wont live long enough to tell about it ENOUGH SAID!!!!!!!!!
MasterPo
Wow! Unfortunately I don't think that store owner is at all unique.
There's a group of preppers that have been dubbed the "gun preppers" who seem to feel all they need is a big gun and lots of ammo. There are some videos about that mind set on youtube.
I have no doubt some people will resort to raiding/looting very quickly in an SHTF event. But it really frieghtens me when I hear stories like that again and again. You never know who is watching you and taking note.
(Which BTW is an issue I have with The Ready Store – their name is all over their shipping boxes in big letters! I know it's promotion but I'd like to keep it low key for my own security.)
thesurvivalmom
I’ve heard these same thoughts voiced on various websites, and my main thought is, “How damn lazy can you get??” Seriously. If these people see the need to prepare but refuse to do it, believing might makes right, they’re lazy And by far most of the preppers/survivalists I know are well-armed, down to the youngest members of the family.
AR15 Bob
sitting here thinking of this whole thing i find this inconcevable that knowledge is power get ready prep tough times are coming care for your self skum are a dime a dozen be better than that help the less fortunate dont steal from them
traumamamma
Right on, Bob! As I said before, people do not rise to the occasion, they sink to their level of preparedness…failure to prepare is preparing to fail. I agree to store extras for those less fortunate. I would only hope that if I had a loved one separated from me during the collapse, someone would give them a hand up…(my family believes in a hand "up" rather than a hand "out", in other words, pitching in for any help received, be it cutting wood, mending, standing watch, whatever).
Barbara
When I hear comments like that, I ask "So do you just kill the parents, and leave the children screaming and starving, or do you murder the little ones too?" Looters are anathema to most of us, but murderous ones are much worse.
The comment on shooting the 12 g. shotgun… the first time I shot a 12, I was 14 yrs old and weighed 90 pounds. I accidentally pulled both barrels at the exact same time. I flew backward a good 5 feet and my father caught the gun. I haven't shot a 12g. since! I'll stick to the 20, thank you.
Gretch
there are a number of fictional stories that address what happens to a protagonist when he/she gets hungry enough. Jean Valjean, anyone? they steal. especially if their babies are hungry. you’re smart to defend what’s yours, but clue into this point right now…it’s not gonna be scumbags coming after you, it’s gonna be desperate fathers and mothers who didn’t know to prep. are YOU going to kill just them and leave THEIR hungry children crying? perhaps hoard a little extra for when they come around instead of shooting them outright.
tim
Murphy's Law #475. During the famine people with guns and no food find out people with food have guns too.
whitebear
exactly. i dont die alone. if someone tries to take whats mine im taking you out. if they get me im gettin them also.
traumamamma
payback is a bummer! lol
Jessica
really – if they plan on stealing with their guns, soon enough there will be no one left to grow the food and bake the bread. People who only stock up on guns and ammo are doing themselves and their families a HUGE disservice.
MasterPo
And all this presumes there is no Katrina style gun confiscation if/when things get bad enough.
traumamamma
To quote that gorgeous actor that is the wonderful NRA spokesman…"they'll have to pry it (my gun) out of my cold, dead hands"…
GoneWithTheWind
I said something like that to an older woman I knew and respected very much. Some 40 years ago she was telling me to store food and she often talked about her own storage. I was young and I was joking and it took me some years before I really understood that I disrespected and undoubtedly disappointed her. It pains me to even remember it. So for what it's worth not everyone who says they would just take their nieghbor's food actually means it. Probably some do mean it and of course when TSHTF others will suddenly discover that they would do it. As for myself I can only say how sorry I am for my careless comment and wish I could have said that to her back then.
rightwingmom
Never underestimate the ability of "civilized" people to de-evolve into hordes of panic stricken thieves and anarchists. I'd like to imagine the best in humanity but the truth is, our modern American society has never really faced a national large scale disaster. We're very charitable, from a distance, and with short-term disasters from which there are escapes to "normal areas" of the country. (i.e. Katrina) However, I'm not willing to bet my family's safety on our society remaining civil, once the majority of the country passes the "9th meal" mark and sees no help coming.
Gardening in Peace
I'm glad this is being discussed. I have been told this on too many occasions over the last few years. I always ask them if they are kidding or just poking fun at me. Just about everyone puffs up their chest and proclaims they are serious.
Much to my wife's chagrin, I inform them that they'll just die hungry.
100% of the time *I receive the "shocked wide-eye stare". I think for a lot of them, they have never ever even considered that preppers will fight back in self-defense.
MasterPo
Reality Check: All well and good to say you'll defend yourself and your food. But has anyone really stopped and considered the FULL ramifications of using lethal force against another human being, possibly against a neighbor or someone you know from the area, even in an SHTF scenario?? You may be justified in using lethal force – but then what? What do you do when you have your neighbor laying shot and bleeding out on your front stoop?! Or worse, laying shot dead on your stoop? Or even inside your home if they broken or forced their way in? And all your neigbors looking at you? In an SHTF event you think you're going to get the police or an ambulance any time soon?? Life just went from 'bad' to 'worse'.
Barbara
I'll feel bad that I had to do it, I'll feel ticked off that they made me do it. But I'll do it. I'll call the police and own up to it, or if things are crummy enough out there, I'll dig a hole and roll him into it, and never look back. (For instance, the situation going on in Haiti since the earthquake. Bandits, rapists, drug addicts and the cops no better than them.)
Yes, reality check. Don't say it if you really can't do it. But trust me, if I wake up to some guy crawling in my window with rape and robbery on his greasy mind, I CAN and WILL blow him back out that window. I'm a nice person, and would likely give him food if his family needs it. But I won't have it stolen from me.
Midge
I'm not murderous. I really don't want to kill anybody. The usual procedure would likely be to go out with a big stick to chase away poachers and thieves. But whoever goes out to do that will be armed, and someone will be waiting around a corner to cover him from somewhere.
I won't kill a man for stealing an apple, and I won't shoot at children raiding my tomatoes. But I've been hassled working in my front yard by neighborhood punks already. Right now, in IT CANT HAPPEN IN AMERICA, I do my gardening with pepper spray in my pocket.
Gardening in Peace
Have you considered the FULL ramifications of a "neighbor" drawing a deadly weapon on your wife, your children, or those who you care for?
What do you do when you have your loved one laying shot and bleeding out on your front stoop? You are more concerned about neighborly "peer pressure" – because "all your neighbors looking at you?"
Or maybe you are more concerned about the lazy SOB who is willing to shoot your family members for food? If he shoots one person, he sure as heck is willing and able to kill everyone. But I guess you wouldn't do anything because you might have to question yourself later about the use of force on this guy.
This moral relativism is amazing to me.
I am gardening. Keeping to myself. This conversation is about those that will TAKE by DEADLY FORCE my food or my shelter and are WILLING to use deadly force on people under my care. (Including myself.)
The FULL ramification is that those that threaten anyone in my care with deadly force will be met in kind and with full prejudice. One thing I can guarantee too: If I don't make it, those that I cared for will fill that poor SOB so full of holes that there will be nothing left to bury.
3624368
Depending on how far things have gone at this point, either dig a hole to bury the remains or dig a hole and build a fire for a luau. Scumbags who have regressed to the point of acting like animals deserve to be treated as such. Waste not, want not………………………………Just kidding. More or less. Who knows what lengths one would go to to survive in a true SHTF world? One thing is for sure; I won't be losing sleep over some jerk I had to put down to insure my families' well-being.
Sean
I'm with Gardening in Peace…someone recently made a very similar comment to me, and when it was said, I simply snickered. My snicker was met with the response of "Oh yeah, and what would you do about it? I know you have supplies. What's to stop me from coming and taking what i want"
I looked at the person and simply said "Because I shoot back…and since I'll be under cover, and in a location I have prepared previously, and am familiar with, I guess that tips the advantage in my favour doesn't it"…He was astounded! He had NEVER ONCE thought of the possibility of someone returning fire, or being prepared for the scenario, and having set up their location to be defensible…
I know a lot of people feel entitled to their bravado and firearms, but some people (especially in the survivalist community) need to stop and think. Some of us preppers spend just as much time on the range as you do, and have invested just as much time and energy into our plans as you have…we've just planned more thoroughly and completely.
I have no doubts that we are approaching a SHTF scenario…if it turns out to be a TEOTWAWKI scenario, I have a feeling there are going to be a LOT of people who get a VERY rude surprise when they're greeted by a muzzle flash when they try to raid someone else's stores. I know that's the response they'll get at my location.
Don't get me wrong, if you're in need, and I can assist without endangering myself or my own, then I will…if you ASK, and offer something in return (even if it's just labour to assist with work I need help with)…come to my land with a weapon, or hostility, and that is what you'll be met with.
Sorry if I come off seeming like a jerk, or a hard-a**…but it's time realism kicked in for some people. Yes, there will be those who raid, and try and take what you have.
If you want to keep your stuff, then be prepared for this fact. I'm not advocating that you build an arsenal and an armoury, but get a weapon (or more than one if feasible, and you have bodies to use them), learn to use them, and be willing to. Don't make it your first solution, but have it in your "toolbox" just in case it's needed.
Newman
Roger that, Sean.
I hear/read comments like that all the time. They're usually from mall ninjas with AK/AR toys who have gun/s, two thousand rounds of ammo and NOTHING else by way of preparations. They're gonna get one hell of a shock when they try to pirate a REAL survivalist who pops ém with his .30-06………………..one shot apiece!
Sean
Hey Newman…
I'm a fan of my Enfield Mark 3 myself (.303 Brit). Deadly accurate, light enough for my Wife to use (and rapidly she's becoming as good a shot as me with it), plentiful ammo, and a proven history of withstanding tons of abuse.
That, a 10-22, and a break open "12" in my opinion are all that I'll need for rifles.
If I run into a situation that these won't work for, then I've obviously screwed up somewhere, and if they're in the house, then it's time to intro them to my friends Walther, and Browning.
As a follow up to the convo I first mentioned above…I've since had that person come to me and ask me to help them set up a plan for long term storage and survival. He had REALLY never once thought of the possibility of someone shooting back when he "came to call", so I'm glad I could be the one to provide his moment of clarity….we'll see how well he adjusts over the next little while…some of his skills (urban and wilderness) need a LOT of work, so I see me just having lost a LOT of my free time this summer.
Newman
G'day, Sean.
The ol' Lee Enfield has a special place in the hearts of us Aussies. We used the No1 MK3 in both world wars AND Korea…………………..plus nailed untold 'roos and feral pigs after the wars. Though I'm a bit of a philistine, coz I'm a mauser man m'self
THe SMLE is still the preferred weapon of the Aphghan tribesmen because they can stand off at 500+ meters and drill their enemies before they hear the shot! They did that to the russians in '79. Just as well for our boys that this present generation of muSSlim whack-jobs all use AKs and have to retreat after they've sprayed away all their ammo!
Can't beat the mil-surps. They shoot anything, No gas systems requiring specific burn rates etc. Reloaded ammo, no problem PLUS they don't chuck the shells all over the countryside so you've got a chance at reloading.
Where do you get your .303 ammo? It seems to be drying up of late. The original MK7 Brit stuff was great. It had aluminum in the tip and lead a the base so it tumbled through anyone it hit. No wonder the .303 punched above it's weight, eh?
Sean
Hey Newman…
Funny you should say that…I'm a Mauser fan myself, but the ammo is just so friggin expensive these days unless I want to use Czeck and Yugo WWII surplus, and with how dirty it is, I'm not a big fan of it. I actually have a pre WWI issue K98a with all serial #'s matching and intact, (Great Grandfather brought 3 of them home as "war prizes" and they have been handed down to the boys in the family over the years) and an SMLE Mk III that came from my Mom's side of the family as an inheritance.
Only prob with the Mauser is the size and weight of it. While I'm fine with it, it's definitely NOT something my Wife is comfortable using so it sees MUCH less use than the Enfield.
.303 Brit is crazy common here in Canada since the Enfield was sold through Sears stores right up until the mid 70's as a hunting rifle and is one of the most common rifles found in homes in Canada…the ammo is almost as common as .22 LR and can be found in most stores that sells ammo around here. And a LOT of the milsurp still carry Mk VII…I've got several hundred myself, as well as newer/modern versions put out by a couple of manufacturers…but the Mk VII is still used when I need a guaranteed hit and knock-down.
Newman
This will make you cry:
In '87/88 I bought a 'new', un-issued Israel K98 with a new, chrome-lined, un-fired barrel by FN. The sights were calibrated perfectly (after I centered the front post!). It shot like a laser! I could hit slivers of pine( that broke off the target frames) on the mound from 200m with just the open battle sights. Guess what……………………f—ing thing got wet in storage and totally screwed!! You reckon I didn't use some language!! Oh well.
I see new, non-corrosive Prvi Partizan 8×57 going in the States for about 65c a round from Aim Surplus.
Ever thought about a new Aussie .308 AIA Enfield? Marstar in Canada sell them. Not cheap but the chrome-lined bore should see you get 18K barrel life.
Sean
Oh believe me…Marstar and I are OLD friends! (Much to my Wife's chagrin)
Yeah, I've considered upgrading my gear…but I think it's a case of "old jeans" syndrome….I'm comfortable with what I have and know it inside and out, what it can do, what it can be made to do, and what there is no way it will do, and I'm leary to give that up in favor of something new.
On the topic of the Israeli K98…ouch! I think I'd have created some new curse words in that case….existing ones just wouldn't cut it!!
Newman
I remember I service rifle shoot back around '87 with that mauser.
It was McVickers Teams. 2 x 4 man teams compete in a knockout competition. Each man shoots at a silhouette target in front of him that represents his opposite number on the other team. When he hits it and the guy in the butts turns it, his opposite number gets tapped on the shoulder and stops (dead!). 100 or 200 meters from memory.
Anyway, my team are doing well. I'm whacking my target with the first shot every time and then shooting my mates targets (as allowed). We've won two heats and next we're up against a bunch of WW2 vets in their late 60s/ early 7os with Lee Enfield Mk3s. We run 7 roar up to the line, I pick up the Mauser and hear what sounds like a machine gun burst and get tapped on the shoulder before I can fire a shot!
Those old buggers with .303s handed us our arses!!
LizLong
One man we know fairly well said something similar. I am trying to include him in our prepping plans because he doesn't have anyone else anywhere near here, and he's strong, healthy, smart, with good self-defense skills so he can help us defend our home and garden. Realistically, two adults can't do it 24/7. Help is needed. But it still doesn't make it ok, or comfortable to hear.
Those folks clearly haven't given any real thought to the future. I agree with the other posters – they will die hungry.
ke4sky
A break-open, single-shot, 12-gauge shotgun is the least expensive, most handy and versatile firearm anyone can own. A farmer doesn’t need a “tactical” shotgun. When doing outdoor chores you won’t carry very many shotgun shells. They run 9 rounds to a pound! Carry only enough ammunition to protect your animals and crops from predators for the day and to forage game for supper on your walk home. A single-barrel shotgun is an adequate meat getter, predator eliminator and home defense gun. Low cost, safety, simplicity, ruggedness, durability, ease of carry, fast handling and versatility are essential. What other firearm costing about $100 used or less than $200 new does so much? http://shilohtv.com/?p=5496
Lady Glover
Great posts!
Lynda
In the event of having to shoot our neighbors because they're trying to steal our food, I highly doubt the police would be around anyway. I don't know about other states but MA has the Castle Law.
I'm quite sure that if the situation evolved to such a drastic scenario te welfare of our own families would take precedence over that of someone trying to steal our food. Such things should never be taken lightly and I'm sure most of us would have made prior arrangements with our immediate neighbors in terms of the sharing of supplies, food and work. It would be expected.
Gardener with a gun
I don't know how wise it is to warn the people who plan to rob you of your food that you are well armed. Instead of one guy showing up with one gun, they may gang up and launch a more organized assault. Just a thought…
RangerRick
I carry everywhere. I too have been with friends and some have had the same idea. They will play until it is time to be ready and they all said,I will go door to door and kick it in ,kill who is there and take what I want. One of the sob’s even talked of the ladies he would take.
I invited them all to a cook out at my place,it was instead a militia meeting of locals who could see who the enemy was. We had a good time and took lots of pictures. We know what they look like and what the drive,where they live and we will deal with them. Those folks were from Martinsville,Shelbyville, and some in Nashville Indiana.Several police officers.
The sob who was into taking women got run over on his motorcycle by a 3 axle dumptruck. Died slowly,I watched as we had nothing big enough to lift the truck off him. He was waiting for a trial for raping a young girl walking to school.I cant believe he was out of jail.
That said,lot of sick folks out there and the judicial system lets more of them free every day.
Carry always,former GreenBeret,Police officer,Still a Patriot
MasterPo
I think a lot of people misunderstood my comments. I am 100%+ for self defense. No disagreement there. But even in a SHTF event there are consequnces to taking a life. You and I are NOT cold blooded killers no matter how much we may feel justified. Sooner or later there WILL be a reckoning for the shooting even in a SHTF/WROL scenario. Heck, even just how to clean up the blood and other bodily fluids after a shooting is an issue (biohazard). Ask any cop ie private citizen involved in a shooting: surviving the attack was just the start of their troubles (sad commentary on our society today).
Marcos
Marjory's facility at 3500 Bliss Spillar Road in Manchaca is the envy of the community. I tease her about having enough grains stored to feed an army. haha
She's an inspiration to us all.
Thanks,
Marcos
Steelheart
What many of these "idiots who unfortunately own guns" also fail to realize is that there may very well still be functional law and order when they start to get hungry. And I doubt that your local law enforcement will look kindly on scum like this. Not every scenario is a total collapse, but to understand that would require the ability for rational thought.
I've long since worked through whether or not I'd perform violence on another person (whether via firearm or hand to hand). I probably have my mental triggers set higher than they should be (as in I'll delay starting rather than popping off early when it may not yet be morally or legally justified) but I can live with that from a moral standpoint. This is also a little bit of an issue in my martial arts class, remember that a non-lethal confrontation is much more likely than a lethal one.
If a gang does try it here I'll do my best to share with as many of them as I can, lead (or all copper) that is. Maybe I'd win, maybe I'd lose but all one can do is try. Worst case, hopefully I managed to leave the world a little better place by having taken out some trash.
Steelheart
Glenda
Many good thoughts on this subject. We garden in an urban setting, most all neighbors KNOW we garden, so there you are. We also have the disadvantage of a streetside vinyl fence that a 5yr old can kick in which "protects" our garden area from a busy thoroughfare. We've discussed an additional fence project, inside the fence, as well as beefing up the security on the detached garage. We too are armed, honest, upstanding citizens, who have had the foresight to get ready for the future chaos we should all see coming.
Just another thought about the police responding. IF things progress to the degree they have in WI and firefighters, ambulance services, police officers and other public employees strike, you have to know it's coming to where you live.
Glenda
It's going to come down to taking care of your own, feeding your own, and protecting your own. All we can do is our best to accomplish this without actually taking a life. We're going to propose an extreme neighborhood watch in our small mobilehome park when things really get dicey. 24/7 patrols, and helping each other with whatever is required. That would translate to labor for food, needed supply items, skills shared etc. Basically, I see it as a work or get out scenario. We've got our storage and are STILL stocking up as fast as we can to have as much over-reserve as possible for sharing.
Violence should be a last resort whenever possible, but don't kid yourself into the "my neighbor's a nice guy, he wouldn't hurt anyone!" mentality. Faced with starving children, parents will do whatever it takes. Wouldn't you?
If ye are prepared, ye shall not fear.
Nick Johnston
People who think they can get food with a gun, will accomplish it maybe once or not at all. The growers have more than his lousy .45
Joe R
I use to work as a salesman at a Gun shop, I have used that very same line about taking peoples food to sell Guns.
Joe R
ke4sky
Brigham Young said that "its cheaper to feed the Indians than to fight them." Get to know your neighbors now. Make plans to help each other. When the electricity and phoned are out rotate fire watches and neighborhood patrol to protect each other. You need to be able to recognize your reliable neighbors versus parasites and intruders. You must be able to identify good people whom you can depend upon and offer assistance to decent people who genuinely need help. At the same time remain vigilant of criminals and predators, establishing a reasonable deterrent so the bad guys will bypass your street and seek their victims elsewhere. Strong fences and pump shotguns make for good neighbors.
Karen604
Unfortunately In my years of teaching NRA courses I too have too often heard the 'since I have a gun I will take what I need" noise. It saddens me, but that is what Hollywood has been teaching for years. Think 'Mad Max'.
I have great fear as to what may happen if/when society falls apart.
Recently I found that I must either be unusual or OLD to have "Lady Skills". I can sew on a button (to the shirt I made for you), Roast a side of beef (that I am learning how to butcher), I can grow a whole garden from cuttings and bake a cake (from flour I ground). Here is the link to the story carried in Denver <a href="http://www .www.9news.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=798145121001″ target=”_blank”>http://www <a href="http://.www.9news.com/video/d…” target=”_blank”>.www.9news.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=798145121001 and yes it made my blood boil.
I have worked hard to teach my sons and daughter many of the skills a less mechanical world would need. Each of us needs to take our needs into our own hands.
SharonAnne
Karen, perhaps when you hear such ‘take’ talk you might just say something like, ‘what makes you think that the people you plan to take from are not beside you right now’? Preppers are prepared, not just gardeners.
SharonAnne
Btw, thank you for teaching NRA classes.
MountainMama
I live in an area where most people are used to doing with very little or even without, and most of us have always gardened because it's one of the few things we can do to control expenses.
I used to be jealous of people in more affluent areas, but when the economy tanked, I was glad to live where I did. I'm sure there are a few people around here who might steal when they get desperate, but even in the worst of times we've never seen anybody become violent. People are already used to having to scrounge together for a living so 2008 was just more of the same.
That said, everyone I know owns a weapon, but no one really thinks about using them except to hunt because we all know each other really well. When someone is really down and out, people lend a hand when they can. It is one of the huge benefits of living in a very small community, and I think nurturing those communities can be a real safety net.
Finally,one of the things I always notice is that when the economy takes a down turn or world events drive newcomers to our community, they usually arrive with money and an air of entitlement (the same mentality that I think would drive someone to believe they should be able to take something because they can), but when something goes down and they find out the hard way that money and arrogance can't buy everything, they begin to see how important relationships with their neighbors are.
The shop owner who is so willing to turn on his neighbors at the drop of a hat may not be alone in his lack of values, but I do think there are people and communities who will and do pull together when things go south, and it is worth nurturing those communities before they do.
Jeanne
Also, it's probably not a good idea to tell people you are stocking your food supply.
TheSurvivalMom
Jeanne, this is sad but true. If someone asks you can always be vague and say, "I like to shop the sales." It's hard to believe, even with the downturn in our economy, that Americans will ever try to steal food from others, but it happens all over the world, and there's no reason to doubt that it could happen here.
Leon
That “take not bake” bread philosophy is just an excuse for laziness. I know many well-armed preppers, and they don’t intend to be robbed.
Safe in Australia
Unbelievable!
Thank God I live in a society where gun ownership has for the most part been eradicated through law.
What survival is there in a shoot out.
When you can't trust your neighbour not to come thieving your food armed to the teeth at the first sign of societal breakdown what hope is there in seeing yourselves through to a bright/er future.
Give up the guns and rediscover trust.
Liz Long
Good for you and your faith in that. I'm assuming you didn't read all the replies to all the posts, because I saw one long exchange between an Aussie and a Canadian about their preferred weapons, and they were most distinctly NOT little handguns. The Aussie also stated one was a "preferred" weapon for Aussies for taking down 'roos and feral pigs. Other people are not the only thing gardeners need to defend themselves against.
You're also assuming that your island nation can keep anyone else from landing their boats (and weapons) anywhere on it and doing whatever they want to your largely-unarmed populace. Just because you don't have a lot of firearms doesn't mean you don't have ANY, nor does it mean you are safe from others attacking you, particularly in a true SHTF situation. Do you really think the Chinese mafia, for instance, would hesitate to attack if they thought they could get away with it? How about Muslim extremists who would simply gather people into a crowd and start killing as many as possible, as quickly and painfully as possible?
traumamamma
Sorry, but when the guns are taken away from the good guys, the only ones to have guns will be the bad guys…and, again, sorry to say, they WILL kill you for your food. And, again, if they will kill you, they will also kill your children. "Ostrich-izing" will not protect your family. Where have you been to miss the despicable state of this world? I can only assume that you have no children, for, what would you say to them in your unfortunate naive view of the world when they are hungry (if still alive) and discover that you allowed a thug to take your food because you really didn't believe someone would steal from you? Our "civilization" is a very thin, transparent crust that will completely fracture within 36 hours of national chaos. There will be no civility, only survival of the fittest. Sad, and ungodly, but true.
SharonAnne
You are quite mistaken. Australia has no right to legislate firearms. Check it out. One state spent A$21,000,000 to buy back over 18,000 pistols. It worked out to A$1,158 per pistol. In the same state, over 15,000 replacement pistols were imported. The Commonwealth of Australia may not confiscate private property without just compensation. Guns were not outlawed, they were bought by the government. Anyone not wanting to surrender their firearms could not legally be forced to do so.
I find it strange that hoplophobes focus on firearm related crime but give no attention to overall crime. If crimes committed with firearms go down, but total crime and murders go up, where is the benefit? Women are pound for pound less muscular than men. The only way most women can protect themselves against a man is with a firearm. Why would any woman in her right mind give up her only advantage she has over a man in combat, and believe it, physical abuse IS combat.
It is delusional to believe that women are safer without firearms. The Emergency Rooms and graveyards are full of women who held that belief.
SharonAnne
SharonAnne
Safe In Australia.
You live in a dream world. Australian authorities have readily admitted that no more than 20% of the outlawed firearms have been turned in. Why is that? The firearm owners of Australia do not trust their government. The only reason to disarm the populace is to establish a dictatorship. It is what Hitler did in Germany and what Stalin did in Russia. Every time a government has disarmed the people a dictatorship has followed. Only when the people have disobeyed disarmament laws have they remained free.
Australians are well armed. They like we Americans do not trust our government. With good reason.
SharonAnne
Callen
True trust in humans can only be earned over time. you better rediscover trust in guns. it's those like you who are unwilling to defend themselves that encourage would-be-predator-opportunists who will take from you your ability to live.
Free
While I am prettymuch opposed to all guns (in a "those kinda things shouldn't ever be invented" kinda way I mean) I do not think prohibiting them is any good!
I live in a country where you can't even legally own/carry a crossbow, catapult, slingshot or a can of mace… This might mean there are less weapons out there to worry about, which is GOOD in every way imaginable…
However, it also means that in the absence of police or any other law enforcement, the ONLY people with weapons are "bad guys", the kind that would blow your head off for a smoke, should the need arise. You can't protect yourself from them, all the martial art skills in the world are not going to help against fire arms!
As for the "shooting your neighbour" scenario; you'd only have to incapacitate them enough so they no longer pose a threat. If you're a good shot this should be doable without striking the fatal blow yourself.
The fact that they'll probably starve, bleed to death slowly or die of infection will not be your fault; if they had prepped they could've taken care of themselves they could've managed, they probably wouldn't even have gotten injured now, would they?
Self defense is a good thing! Violence is always a last resort, but if someone gets you into a situation where you need to tip the scales of the victim/attacker balance in your favor instead of theres you should (be enabled to) do so without a doubt. Being peacefull is important, but being a victim when you don't have to is stupid!
I think I'll practice a bit with a (cross)bow anyway, sod the legality. It's kind-of-legal to own one… Just not to carry, transport or use it LoL.
SharonAnne
Free, where do you live? It sounds like it is not on Terra. Please, I truly want to know.
SharonAnne
Stand
Hi Liz,
Thanks for mentioning Project Appleseed. There are even all female events called “Ladyseeds” with all female instructors and students. Appleseed wants to form a connection with the sacrifices made to give us our liberties and to live into the responsibilities of a citizen. Those sacrifices gave us the option of the ballot box.
People that have never fired a rifle before to competition shooters can get something from Appleseed. The skills are transferable to larger rifles and pistols.
BTW the link is broken. http://www.appleseedusa.org will work.
Malitia is only mentioned in reference to 1770s, no modern politics are discussed. Our message is for all to hear and to help us bail out the sinking ship of America.
Thanks,
Gary Wolf
I know a few people that think this way, why learn, I can take.. I have a couple posts about hiding your garden. there pretty basic. stuff
SharonAnne
To ‘Free’ and ‘Safe in Australia’. Please look at the violent crime statistics in the UK, Canada and Australia. Such crimes have skyrocketed since firearms have been ‘banned’ in those countries. It is very true that ‘might makes right’ when there is not rule of law OR a greatly reduced risk of injury when the bad guys are pretty sure that there is no gun in the house they intend to invade.
Look at the crime statistics in the USA. The most violent areas are those where firearms are greatly restricted, New York City, Chicago and Los Angeles. Where the ownership and ability to carry concealed are not restricted, such as my home State of Arizona and City of Phoenix, the violent crime rate is very much lower. Why? Because the criminal element don’t know who is armed. It is that fear that holds them in check. Where the private citizen cannot have firearms the thugs know that if they have say knives or clubs and are strong, they can invade your home with impunity. Even the steriotypical 98 pound weakling is as strong as any thug if that weakling has a gun and knows how to use it. At 60 years of age, with 6 fused vertabrae, I can walk in a park at night (walk through the valley of death) and fear no evil, a double stack 1911 .45 ACP comforts me!
You may think that the draconian laws that outlaw firearm ownership keep you safe but the truth is exactly the opposite. Check the crime statistics and you will find your “Safe in Australia” attitude is nothing but a fairy tale. Also, there are many more firearms in Australia than you think. Why? Because the criminals, being the type to disobey laws, did not turn in their guns.
However, if believing there are no guns in your county makes you feel all warm and cozy and safe, by all means do so. When the thugs are breaking down your door, see how safe you feel.
Firearms ownership and skill at arms is part of a well balanced “Prepper” program. People do or will know you have preps. If not before things go bad, they will after. How? While all around them are starving, you will not be. Violent confrontations will happen WROL. Remember, the police seldom prevent crime. They just capture criminals and put them in jail to await trial. When there are no police, jails or courts what will keep you safe? Only being armed and part of a community prepared to work together.
The fantasy of running to your Bug Out Location (BOL) is just that, a fantasy. If you do not LIVE in your BOL then you will just be one more refugee trying to move into a community already defending themselves. Even owning a home in some BOL probably will not help. You will still be a stranger.
Living the ‘prepper’ lifestyle entails many aspects, some of them not so appealing. Deal with it.